What's wrong with performance SUVs?

"Jay, the practical enthusiast" (jay-m) 11/19/2018 at 08:00 • Filed to: None

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I don’t understand all the hate for SUVs. As someone who loves practical vehicles, I can’t even tell the difference between station wagons and SUVs. And who doesn’t love station wagons?

I know some people think that sports cars should only have 2 doors but we’ve slowly gotten used to the performance sedan. Adding on to that, some manufacturers have made performance versions of their station wagons. As enthusiasts we seem to demand these sports models even if they only sell in limited numbers.

Subaru Legacy GT-B

Cadillac CTS-V

So why all the hate for performance SUVs? Is it just a continuation of the irrational hate for SUVs? Shouldn’t we be happy that we can get performance versions of otherwise mundane family haulers? Isn’t it great that those of us that can’t have a dedicated sports car at least have the option for a compromise?

Jeep Grand Cherokee SVT

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:11

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I’m going to sum up my thoughts as follows - Yes, they’re quick SUVs. But they’d be even quicker as cars/station wagons. Not only that, but most SUV drivers struggle to control your average SUV/crossover. So giving them more power and speed they can’t handle usually just empowers them to drive everywhere like jackasses. 

random001 > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:14

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I think themanwithsauce basically has it. It’s not the SUV we hate, it’s that bad drivers in smaller cars are more manageable than bad drivers in massive SUVs...

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:17

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There are good and bad performance SUV’s:

Good:

Bad:

The Dummy Gummy > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:20

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Height, bloated, less agile, top heavy, worse fuel economy .

I’m fine with whatever but those are the common hitters for the hate.

Tapas > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:21

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It’s not the best compromise.

No handling and no steering feel takes away a lot from an enjoyable drive that is characteristic of sports cars. I get that no one wants to feel a high center of gravity and 3 tons on their steering wheel, so that is an inherent flaw in making SUVs faster.

I have nothing against SUVs being fast either. Everything should be allowed to be fast. But without good handling, they should be called GT SUVs and not a Sports SUVs.

But also, the people who usually buy them lends a douchemobile aura to them .

Jay, the practical enthusiast > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 11/19/2018 at 08:22

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I don't know, I'm of the opinion that the more performance vehicles we have the better. For those of us who can't afford the Mercedes it's nice to have a cheaper option. 

Tapas > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 11/19/2018 at 08:22

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The GLA isn’t an SUV.

Its a Crossover between a Crossover and a Hatchback. 

Jay, the practical enthusiast > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 11/19/2018 at 08:24

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Bu t couldn't the same be said of any type of vehicle? Mustang owners have turned themselves into a meme, yet no one suggests that we stop selling them.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:27

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Have you driven a sport SUV? No amount of power or stiff suspension can quite curb the fact that SUVs are inherently heavy. This leads to a car with a  mismash of handling traits that don’t go well together. Sure, it’s going to be able to take that corner at speed, but you’ll be terrified the whole time.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:27

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Why take the utility out of an SUV just to make it a little bit faster? That lead photo you used is an excellent example. It’s lost all of its comfort and hauling capabilities just so it can go a little bit faster and handle corners a little bit better. Yet it will never be a performance sedan. 

Jay, the practical enthusiast > Tapas 11/19/2018 at 08:27

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I think crossovers should be included because people tend to hate on them as well.

Jay, the practical enthusiast > random001 11/19/2018 at 08:29

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That feels like group punishment. Because some drivers are bad, no one should be allowed to have the extra performance. 

Jay, the practical enthusiast > Tapas 11/19/2018 at 08:31

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Here in Florida all our roads are flat and straight. People here care less about handling and more about acceleration. 

Tripper > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:32

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“What’s wrong with performance SUVs?”

Nothing, but I want 3 pedals. Also, for the price of most performance SUV’s you can get a lot more car/wagon.

However we need at least one practical car at our house and my wife takes one for the team in that department. She’s got a 2017 Forester, it’s certainly no performance car, but it does have 3 pedals.

Jay, the practical enthusiast > TheRealBicycleBuck 11/19/2018 at 08:36

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The lead photo is a custom, one off 2000 hp land speed vehicle. https://newatlas.com/toyota-land-cruiser-230-mph/49395/

I can't find any pictures of the interior but I'm guessing it has been completely stripped out.

random001 > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:36

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No, it doesn’t. No one is being punished because some people are anti-performance SUV. That’s hyperbole.

I’m saying that I don’t think there’s a “performance SUV hate” going on, it’s just an extension of the anti-SUV sentiment because they are usually unnecessary, and most drivers are bad enough as it is. The SUV being large, heavy, and performing poorly in situations that require quick action makes having drivers that are not paying attention, or just bad in general from lack of giving a shit even more dangerous, and giving them MOAR POWAH isn’t going to make things better. Everyone knows that SUVs are more difficult to drive well and safely when you are distracted or not paying attention. This is not a disputed fact. Stopping distances are longer, momentum transfer is a bitch, weight is the enemy. Make them faster, and all these problems compound. Make drivers better, and more aware, and you can mitigate some of these things.

And remember, I have a lumbering 5000 lbs 4x4 SUV now, so clearly may hate has abated somewhat. 

Tekamul > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:38

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I can’t even tell the difference between station wagons and SUVs

Come on, man. To quote an old senator, you know it when you see it. It’s all about proportions, but I think 60" height is a good rule of thumb. More than that, it’s an SUV. Less than that, it’s something else that may be calling itself an SUV for marketing (MB GLA).

‘ P erformance’ is about a lot more than straight line speed. This is why SUVs need not apply. For example, t he Jeep GC SRT has lots of straight line speed, because the motor is huge, it has AWD, and the weight really sticks the tires to the pavement.

But it also has a skidpad number of 0.87g. That’s not performance anything. That’s landing on your door handles in a moose test. That’s oversteering into the guardrail when you punch it on an on ramp. That’s giving a hand gun to a toddler. Sure, there’s a lot of power, but little ability to apply it in a reasonable fashion.

A nd that’s where the hate comes from, it gives the rest of us a bad name. We can do that on our own.

DipodomysDeserti > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:40

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Yeah, lowered Land Cruiser is just like a Legacy GT-B. All 6k lbs of it!

That aside, I don’t see any hate for SUVs around here. Some of our most enthusiastic memebers drive Land Cruisers, Jukes, and Jeeps.

Jay, the practical enthusiast > Tripper 11/19/2018 at 08:41

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I don't know if it was ever sold outside of Japan, but Subaru did make a STI version of the Forester. 

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:42

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Some people hate practicality married with speed

Tripper > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:46

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We didn’t get the STi version here, but we did get 75% of it in the “Forester 2.5 XT Turbo”. They are however tough to come by and pricey if you find a manual one. I’ve seen one or two done up in STi fashion and they look great. When she’s ready for a new car I might take hers throw a real suspension and some meaty tires on it and go looking for an engine/trans to swap out.

She get’s one nice new car I get to have 2-4 older impractical vehicles. It’s not a bad trade off.

Jay, the practical enthusiast > random001 11/19/2018 at 08:48

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Now I got you and I agree with everything you said. But I still want that performance option. 

Jay, the practical enthusiast > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 11/19/2018 at 08:50

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But how about just for straight line speed then?

random001 > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:52

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I wish performance minivans were a thing again....

Jay, the practical enthusiast > random001 11/19/2018 at 08:55

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I'm right there with you. Minivans are my thing.

404 - User No Longer Available > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 08:59

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Drove a ML 63 once. Entire time I’m just worried I’ll flip the damn thing.

Jay, the practical enthusiast > Tekamul 11/19/2018 at 09:00

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I guess my thinking is that most people don't push their performance cars to the limit so why would SUVs be any different? And wouldn't some extra handling and braking be better than none?

random001 > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 09:05

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Though a lifted AWD Sienna with 300 HP is coming close...

Tapas > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 09:12

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That’s fine.

Call them GTUVs and you have my blessing. Not that any automaker needs it. But there - I said what’s never going to happen in order to please me.

Tapas > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 09:14

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True.....but they’re hated also because they’re called SUVs when they’re not. And you just categorized them as an SUV.

WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON?! THE BL ASPEHE MERRS?!?! Lol

Tekamul > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 09:21

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But it’s a lot easier to get that extra braking and handling by not buying an SUV.  In the end, what does an SUV offer that a wagon doesn’t? And the wagon is going to weigh less, to boot.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 09:23

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I didn’t suggest we stop selling them. Nor did I say that there aren’t cars with a similar reputation.

But the fact that bad mustang drivers is a meme means that even average people seem to know that a mustang with a V8 is a smaller car with a lot of power and can be dangerous if driven poorly. I honestly don’t think the people who drive high powered SUVs, performance or not, understand how dangerous they can be. When the average person who says they drive fast really just means they drive dumb, I don’t think they imagine their big, heavy, AWD SUV as being able to put them in a bad situation.

mrbaits > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 09:23

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There’s a whole generation of us for whom wagons are the soccer mom family truckster and will always be about as cool as minivans are now. SUV’s to me are taller versions of wagons, I agree with you on this point.  Now SUV'S have become the soccer mom family truckster just like wagons and minivans have served in the past.  I would make an exception for performance versions of anything though, if it really is faster than most cars.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 09:25

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If it was more difficult to get and keep a license, I’d be all for more high performance trims on vehicles of all shapes and sizes. 

Alfalfa > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 09:36

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I ’ll gi ve you the very short version.

Yo u take a quick wagon.

Yo u add body cladding ride hieght to make it look “rugged”

It once handled like a sporty sedan. Because that’s essentially what it was.

Now it handles (and looks) like an angry cow.

All for the sake of the driver’s vanity.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 09:36

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A Grand Cherokee Trackhawk is a full second slower in the quarter mile than a Charger Hellcat, despite having the same engine. The same mods used to make an SUV fast will always make an even faster and better-to-drive Sedan/Coupe.

You gotta think about price too. For $85,000 you can get a Trackhawk OR you can buy a Corvette ($55k) and a Honda Pilot ($30k). You can meet your needs for a fast car and a family hauler without any compromise . Which choice would you go for? Nobody is buying a fast SUV for the driving pleasure or the practicality. They exist solely for bragging rights.

Berang > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 09:36

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weight + inherently high center of gravity

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > random001 11/19/2018 at 10:06

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I 2nd this.

Shift24 > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 10:16

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I dont have a problem with Performance SUVs, the problem I have is when they are compared to sports cars. The new Edge ST ad erks me. Where they compare sports cars practicality to an SUV. No fucking shit its going to have more room.

Its like when people compare the Charger and Challenger to track cars . We all know they are drag kings but ask a Hellcat to keep up with a Miata in the corners and see what happens. What I am saying is k eep in your lane.

Also weight.... The X5M weighs 5,260 lbs and a TrackHawk weighs 5,364 lbs . A 2001  4X4 suburban with 3 rows of seats weighs less at 5, 123 lbs...

jasmits > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 10:59

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Because it’s pure marketing with no substance.

For $87,000 you could have a Grand Cherokee Trackhawk OR you could have a $40k Grand Cherokee Trailhawk that drives exactly the same besides when you floor it while being better off road, better in the snow and more fuel efficient AND a $45k Camaro SS 1LE that’s a tick slower in a straight line but faster and dynamically superior to the Trackhawk in every meaningful way besides a hard launch sprint to 60 with $2k leftover to go to a racing school and learn how to drive your Camaro on the track.

Textured Soy Protein > Jay, the practical enthusiast 11/19/2018 at 11:19

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I’m totally fine with crossovers, as they serve a purpose and are fine for what they do. My wife’s CX-5 is nice. It’s fine. It’s comfy, quiet, has competent driving dynamics, we can fit another couple in the back seat, and plenty of stuff in the trunk.

I’m all for practical vehicles that are still fun. But, a ll else equal, for a performance vehicle, I’d still rather be lower to the ground.

That said , since the market has given us many performance SUVs/crossovers and much fewer hot hatchbacks and wagons, I can accept some of the more fun (i.e. overall fun to drive, not only big power) smaller-ish SUVs/crossovers, l ike the X3 35i/ M40i, GLA45 & GLC43/ 63 , Macan, Stelvio, I suppose probably SQ5, and the old Infiniti FX50. I love the GLA45 and the Stelvio QF.

I’m less a fan of the midsize and larger performance SUVs, just because they’re big and you’re not really going to have a chance to enjoy them on public roads outside of making fun noises or cruising at extra-legal highway speeds. They’re not point-n-squirt cars. I’d rather have a “regular” version. Even a step-up model like an X5 50i or GLE43.

But when you get up into the stuff like an X5 M, Range Rover SVR , whatever else is in that size/price/power bracket, sure you have the 2-box shape and the cargo room that comes with it, but it’s a much more compromised performance car. I’d much rather have an M5, Panamera, etc. than any of the big top-dog performance SUVs.  

And... I hate performance SHITs because I hate all SHITs.